When flawed thinking thinks it is flawless

I would like to analyse a view of the world I find rather offensive and disturbing. A view I am relieved most would disagree with. Saying this, many still share this logic.

This view came in comment form after I responded to a post that was pretty much a threat to those who don’t believe. I will break the comment down into sections due to its length via each point.

It largely demonstrates the flawed logic of a believer. Three factors together to take into account which, to me, scream unfair play.

1. God creates us inferior, we cannot comprehend his ability or origins.

2. God commands us to believe in him. Yet the understanding of Christianity comes solely from society, not God.

3. Although we do not possess the ability to fully understand or communicate with God, God excludes us from the Kingdom of Heaven as a result of being unconvinced. This is irreversible and eternal.

This is as flawed as it is untrue. It is very flawed at that. So without further ado, let us analyse the comment.

It starts with a response to an argument I put across. Asking if the believer would stay at home and only speak when spoken to if instructed to by God. She said:

If God, as my creator, told me to I had to stay in the house and only speak when spoken to, as difficult as it may be, as much as I might not like it, if he has asked me to live in perfect obedience to Him out of love for and trust for him, then stay in the house and only speak when spoken to is exactly what I would do because I am called to do it and, should I choose not to then, I am being disobedient and subject myself to any consequence related thereto.

Instant submission. As easy as that. To be that willing to serve a deity, whilst never being in direct dialogue with, is a grave concern.

Firstly, you think I have a right to be free, and if I am deprived freedom in some way, then I will suffer

Agreed.

Why do you think we have a right to be free? Why do you believe as humans beings we possess some sort of fundamental rights and all? Correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s because you believe my life and your life and the lives of all people everywhere have value.

Agreed.

Otherwise, you would have no ground to stand on in getting upset when you or I or anyone else is mistreated or abused or their freedom restricted in any way. Abuse inflicted upon and deaths of people would not matter if lives had no value. They could only be called a tragedy if the lives of these people had meaning. And to have meaning, they had to exist as a result of more than random chance.

Like a pregnancy that takes nine months of special care and preparation, for example. Made possible after millions of years of our species evolution, with higher success rates thanks to our continual understanding and research.

They had to have a purpose to be considered tragic. Purpose can’t come from nothingness, random, spontaneous existence.

Like, erm, the sudden surge in life via a God after the sudden creation of the heavens and the Earth? Nothing sounds more sudden and ‘random chance’ than the biblical tale of events.

Given the rapid moral decline of this world, I would not be so sad if God were to limit my ability to move about it and interact with those in it.

I’m sorry, but this is not a game of chess. We don’t need to make a move of sacrifice for our own benefit. Let’s imagine I own a crèche. I introduce a new child to the group. This child doesn’t get along with one certain child in particular. To overcome this, I limit the vulnerable child’s movement within the crèche. Is that really the best resolve? This is the best logic an infinitely knowledgable God has to play with? No it isn’t. All this proves is that we can only conjure up resolves humans are capable of thinking of. If that vulnerable child is happy with the solution, well, a child wouldn’t know any better.

Did you ever consider perhaps the reason He might limit my freedom is actually because He loves me and wants to keep me from harm?

After considering the above, no.

The assumption in all your statements that freedom=happiness couldn’t be more wrong

I agree with this partially. Like the author states in her post, total freedom may produce anarchy. Yet once again there is an obvious failure to take into account the ability God possesses. The ability to grant us total freedom and a total understanding of compassion and togetherness. This is possible, for God anything is possible, so why does he make it so difficult?

By definition, discrimination cannot exist in a world of absolute morality, at least not a world where all people conduct their lives according to the dictates of that absolute morality.

Just because a morality is defined as ‘absolute’ does not mean it is faultless. It just means the creator of such a morality is not willing to change the rules. I struggle to come to terms with why God has a perfect system just because he created said system- because he was always in existence. If there were no morals prior to God, what standard is he going by? We know better than God what morals to live by, after all we are the ones that have to live alongside one another. It is just a shame every continent on Earth is plagued with a flawed ideology, coincidentally all convinced that theirs is flawless. Yet for thousands of years these perfect Gods have proved unworthy of the title. If a national leader was to prove as unworthy of the challenge, they would be out of a job at the next election. I guess that is down to knowing another leader will take his/her place. Religion doesn’t have such a safety net.

And yes, if people conduct their lives according to the dictates of that absolute morality, they may well indeed suffer discrimination. They just have no choice in the matter.

I wish I trusted in Him, obeyed his command and allowed my freedom to be restricted because the result in me doing what you call the ‘good’ thing has caused immense heartache and suffering

I have shortened this quote due to the more personal nature of the events mentioned, it is not my place to bring them up in my blog. One however, was an unplanned pregnancy that I have decided to state as this isn’t all that unfamiliar in nature.

What is the worth of a baby born from an unplanned pregnancy? Well, incredible worth. This goes against the idea that anything created without meaning or purpose is of no value, the authors first argument. Who gives a shit if there was no pre planned and purpose driven motive for a resulting situation. It is staggeringly ignorant and damaging to suggest a loving being capable of compassion, suffering and all the emotions in between can be disregarded because there was no conscious intention to bring that person into the world. Now I am not doubting the author is a good parent, or feels love towards her child. But this is the exact same situation we find ourselves in through evolution. I know I am capable of love and hate seeing people suffer, how dare anyone say only a creator can allow us to value these emotions?

What if it is proven beyond doubt that God does not exist (which cannot be done, for the same reason no one can prove I did not create the universe), will everyone suddenly start to walk carelessly into traffic? Stop brushing their teeth? Stop watching comedy shows? Stop loving? Of course not. Because regardless of why our brains function we know what we like and dislike. What feels good and what doesn’t. What causes harm and what helps us cooperate.

And you claim God is immoral for creating a confusing world. Why is God immoral because you are confused? The world is confusing because of your failure and/or inability to understand it, not because it is un-understandable. This does not make God immoral, it is proof of your finiteness and proof of his infiniteness

So the confusion proves my finite ability to comprehend the Universe, yet it is my fault I cannot understand the workings of a creator? Even though it has just been said that I am no match for his intellect? And this is intentional? This level of contradictory thinking leaves me just as confused.

And lastly…

And honestly, why should he (God) speak to you? You’ve told him and made it clear to him more than a few times that you don’t believe he exists. Every attempt he makes to speak to you, through the Bible, through people like me, through the world around you everywhere you go you will never hear him. Are you truly prepared to pay the eternal price for the illusion of freedom you so cling so tightly to?

Why does God himself never speak to me? He has never once sat next to me, approached me or spoken to me directly. It should be his moral duty to make the effort himself, it is the least he can do if the price for not believing is eternal damnation. Not through the Bible, or fellow humans, he should so this himself. I didn’t ask to be born, why the hell should I spend my life chasing a God to save myself from an eternal punishment?

I am not going to lose sleep over it, the people I want to spend time with are probably excluded from his kingdom anyway.

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6 thoughts on “When flawed thinking thinks it is flawless

  • I can say that, as a Christian, I wholly disagree with this person. And I apologize for the way that they have presented God to you and to this public forum. I apologize for the way Christians treat atheist in general. We have been proud and condescending. And far too hasty to condemn. Very much unlike the Lord we claim to serve. Kudos to you for taking bullshit like this head on.

    • Thank you for commenting and following my blog 🙂 the main point of my post was to attack the view presented to me for being immoral, although I do not disagree with her view of Christianity all that much. It is coincidental that you responded to my comment in blog form as I was doing the exact same thing with the author below, for that reason I have not addressed your post just yet, but I definitely will very soon.

      Thank you,
      Sam

  • We truly could go on ad infinitum, couldn’t we? I truly, sincerely appreciate you taking the time to read and respond to my responses. It is more than most who I have discoursed with in the blogging world. And I also appreciate your refraining from using profanity and going fairly easy on me as far as personal insults on my blog. Again, not my usual experience in these types of forums. I do feel, though, that the time has come to an end for the banter back and forth. I could spend days, weeks, months, perhaps years and never be able to “clear up” the misunderstandings you possess of Christianity, of Jesus, of God and of where you fit into it all, nor might anyone else. George MacDonald once said, “To give truth to him who loves it not is to only give him more multiplied reasons for misinterpretation.” So with that, I would refer you to the likes of Ravi Zacharias, Michael Ramsden and Dr. John Lennox, men whose abilities to expound on the issues we have spent the past several days discussing far exceed my own.

    You may be glad to know God does not call me to save you or to even try. Thus, I have not attempted to. The reason He does not call me to is because only He is capable of this. I am, however, called to share the Truth with you, and that is what I have done. Whether or not you accept it is up to you. My desire and goal with my blog and with my life in general has been, is and will continue to be to get people to think. Of all the dangers in this dangerous world, a closed mind is the most dangerous thing of all. While your mind does in many ways seems to be closed to perceiving truth to be found anywhere else but inside itself, from certain comments you made in your post on your blog and in response to my blog, I perhaps see a tiny crack that maybe, just maybe, will be capable of letting in an ever-so-tiny speck of light. Fortunately, that’s all God needs or even asks for. You see, while I cannot claim to have ever been nor actually identified myself an atheist, which you may or may not have either, I have been on your side of things. I have thought the very same thoughts about God, I have suffered the same confusion and felt the same lack of understanding, and I have been offended by Christianity and its claims and those who practiced it as those you have shared with me and on your blog. And that’s where the difference is. I have been on your side of things. You have yet to be on mine. I am in the blessed position to know what it’s like to live life with those thoughts and beliefs and believe I was absolutely, near 100% right in believing them, but when things didn’t make sense to me, even angered and incensed me, rather than concentrate my efforts on criticizing, even attacking those who thought differently than me and dismiss the thoughts because it was too frustrating to live with the cognitive dissonance thinking them produced, I fought through them, determined to not stop searching until I finally found answers, found evidence, for as much as I possibly could. And this is where that search has led me. And I am far from alone. The same can be said for the likes of C.S. Lewis, Peter Hitchens (brother of the late Christopher Hitchens), Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, as well as scientists Anthony Flew, Francis Collins and Alister McGrath. A worldview of nontheism has served as the launching pad for some of the most influential Christians of our time. My hope and prayer is it will for you, and perhaps some of your readers, as well.

    You struggle tremendously with the danger that exists in this world, with disparity and injustice and restriction of freedoms, the pain and suffering we all have to endure at some point in our lives. And while I question that you have a foundation upon which to do so, I applaud the heart behind it. Such a heart comes from God, whether it acknowledges it or not. God did not create this world to be a dangerous place. It was not His original design nor was it His intention for us to ever live in this kind of a world. The Garden of Eden was paradise before the fall. There was no pain, no suffering, no danger, no sickness, no death. There was no competition for resources. In fact, there was a need for and lack of nothing, not emotional, not physical, not spiritual, not anything in any way. And God walked daily and spoke in person with His creation. It is a fact that this world is dangerous. But it is dangerous because the choices of mankind have made it that way. And while God did not ordain it, He has allowed it for purposes that we need not understand or agree with in order to believe in, follow and obey Him. There is a quote that has been credited to Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, but I believe it is actually a recapitulation of what he heard as a boy growing up. Speaking in reference to the horrible tragedies that befell Russia in the 20th century, he could find no better way to say it than had been said to him, “Men have forgotten God; that’s why all this has happened.” I sit here in America today watching the same fate befall us. As an increasing number of American citizens, our current president included, have steadily and systematically sought to expel God from our homes, our schools, our communities, our government and our nation, the cracks in our once solid Christian foundation are beginning to show, and we hear the groans of the society that rests upon it growing ever louder as we struggle to stay upright on the crumbling bedrock. Whether it is a nation, a town, a home or an individual, when men forget God, disaster ensues. There will be no excuse for the man or woman who stands before God and accuses Him – of not having spoken to them, of not having made Himself known to them, of not having made Himself understandable to Him. He has done all these things. The choice is each person’s whether or not to listen, to accept and to believe the Truth that is undeniably evident all around them.

    As I state on my blog, don’t have blind faith in what the world thinks. What the world thinks is often wrong. But the world doesn’t suffer for its misguided thoughts. You do. Dare to open your mind. Have courage to go wherever it may lead you. There is more to this world than just what your eyes can see. Believe you can find it – that it can find you. Have faith to think.

    You don’t have to be a Christian to be a blessing to others. I have been truly blessed by our conversation. God has spoken to me through you. He has used you to draw me closer to Him. Fortunately for me, your acquiescence was not required in order for Him to do so. May God use my writings as well as your own to draw you closer to Him, and may He bless you and each and every person who reads this, whether you choose to accept His blessing or not.

    • Thanks for the comment.

      I agree that we definitely have separate views and for that reason a continuous conversation would not be wise. I must state though, that until the age of 16 I was a Christian. I went to Sunday School and a large part of my family are very religious. So the religion is not alien to me. I just feel that if God has to speak through people he is not doing the best job, and all of the limitations he puts on us ‘for out own benefit’ if I can put it like that, could be dealt with in a different way. In a way I cannot think of but I am sure he can, I don’t have his level of thought. The methods we have spoken of seem very man made indeed.

      I do hope you keep looking out for my future posts though.

      Thanks again,
      Sam

      • If you remember I stated a while back that I became a Christian in spite of my upbringing, not because of it. I was brought up in the church as well, my grandfather being a Scottish Baptist hell-fire-and-damnation minister. We were in church every time the doors opened – had to be. We said prayers at every meal and bedtime, too, but to say I knew God or had a relationship with Him would have been a lie. I wanted one, but my grandfather’s preaching didn’t really send the message it was possible. We were all damned to hell, nothing we could do about it, so our goal in life was to just try to be as perfect as we could be and hope for the best. His sermons never said anything about grace, or if they did, the word went over my head. So I grew up with a tremendous fear of God, if someone that horrible could even exist, and a horrendous perfectionist mentality trying to be as perfect as I could to please Him. And when I was about 15, I finally started giving up on the idea that I could actually depend on anyone else but myself. I didn’t denounce God, but I sure didn’t welcome Him into my life anymore and tried hard not to even think about Him because doing so just made me mad after all I and my family had been through and all I had seen.

        My dad died when I was still fairly young and I think he was saved even though he never spoke about the idea of being saved once, but I won’t know until I take my last breath. My mom says she believes in God and thinks she’s saved, but she pretty much does the hail Mary prayers when all hell breaks loose and otherwise tries not to think about Him or anything else to do with religion because she’s scared of death and has no clue what’s going to happen to her when she dies, which probably won’t be much longer. As for my brother, he’s been a diehard atheist for as long as I can remember, never believed in God for a single day, until just these past couple years where his heart is finally seeming to soften and, for the first time ever, he will actually tell me he’s praying for me and my daughter when we have surgeries and all our medical issues to contend with. And he finally actually tells me he loves me from time to time, a far cry from the many times he hurt me and tried to kill me growing up. To see his heart changing at the age of 48 gives me hope for everyone after the life I had growing up with him. But honestly, to see my heart changed is the greater miracle. I didn’t think it was possible. Fortunately, God believed in me even when I didn’t believe in myself.

        I responded to a post of a fellow blogger today regarding the fact that the biggest threat to Christianity and the biggest obstacle to believers isn’t the person possessing an opposing worldview. It’s the Christian. Dallas Willard says, “We always live up – or down – to our beliefs; we seldom live up to what we profess.” How true that is. We as Christians so often talk a great talk, but when people look at our actions, the two often don’t coincide, and that is what is draining the life and power out of the Christian faith today. I honestly don’t blame anyone for not believing in God if all they are looking at is people who call themselves Christian. Seeing my friends in high school and college and beyond who called themselves Christian and then lived so contrary to what I had read in the Bible was a definite nail in the coffin of what little faith I had for many years. And the saddest thing is that many who call themselves Christians will never enter the gates of heaven because their faith isn’t true, saving faith. They believe in God because it makes them feel good and they don’t like the logical conclusion they must come to with other worldviews, or they believe because their parents believed but never came to real faith of their own, or many other reasons, but they do not believe the one thing God asks them to believe in order to be right with Him.

        It was ironic that I stumbled across that post of a fellow blogger because my daughter and I were just speaking about the same subject this morning, how divisiveness within Christianity and failure to live what we profess is a far greater threat than all opposing worldviews combined. As Christians we must remember that each person we have the honor and privilege of pointing towards Christ, we also have the possibility of leading them away as well. I take very seriously every single word I say in these forums and pray with each post that God’s will will be done with them. I know how the right word can create an ember that down the road, God can turn into a burning passion for Him. I also know how the wrong word can prove a stumbling block and shut down a searching mind, a hurting spirit or a lost soul. I know I am flawed – flawed so badly that it is hard to take sometimes and I have struggled with thoughts of suicide for much of my life as a result – but I also know God can take my flaws and use them to reach out to others with flaws as well. He can take my hurts and use them to heal the hurts of others. And if He can use me to help bring even one soul to heaven that otherwise might not have made it, then all the pain and suffering I have been through, and sacrifice He calls me to, are worth it.

        I so appreciate your final reply. I promise and look forward to looking out for future posts from you. I hope and trust you will do the same from me.

        God bless,
        Cindy

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